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Is the 'free market' a good economic system?  |
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 Replies: 21 — Last Post Oct. 12 12:18am by Elm
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| Choice |
Votes |
Percent |
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| Yes, the 'free market' is the best economic system possible |
8 |
42% |
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| It's not perfect but I'm fine with it |
1 |
5% |
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| The framework is ok but there should be more regulation and higher wages for lower level workers |
6 |
31% |
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| No, we need a newly formed type of economic system altogether (socialist, communist, etc) |
4 |
21% |
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| Vote Now! |
19 Votes Cast |
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( boy4boy15 )
Dairy Product Addict
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So i was just tihnking about our world and how its run. Conservatives and the Republican PArty have proven to be sellouts bbefore, but they went against their party's fundamental system by voting for a very Socialist bill (the $700 billion bailout) to 'save Wall St.' It's done a great job so far *rolls eyes* But anyways, they did this because their true great 'free market' system that became largely unregulated had failed. The sad reality is that there are lots of shitty jobs available, and much less well sought after jobs. In other words, there are millions of undesireable jobs out there, while there are far fewer desireable ones. So, when most peopel are young they say 'well I'll work hard and get a good education and it'll pay off for me.' Even if you do this, you're not guaranteed a good job, or even respect in any field you enter. The sad reality is that some of us will end up with crappy jobs that don't pay well, or even if we find a very helpful job we like like a charity worker you still won't get paid much for it, while some greedy asshole motherfucker gets to sit at a desk all day and defer any work they don't want to do to someone else while getting almost any overpaid salary they want. (I'm not saying all rich and powerful people are assholes, but generally speaking I'd say they are). Is it fair that janitors only get paid minumum wage? That the housekeeper thats cleaning your hotel room that you leave trashed with no tip has to work two jobs just to get from paycheck to paycheck? That nurses do most of the work when you visit the doctor's and the doctor comes in and sees you for a couple of minutes and gets paid more than the nurse probably had all hour? I mean, society couldn't operate without janitors, housekeepers, nurses, sewage workers, etc. Nothing could run. So they're essential. Could a company run without a CEO? Largely yes, I'd say. Is our market system we have now fair? Should it be fair? Do you care if its fair?
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Savior
Professional
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Needs more regulation.
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handsfree
Soothsayer
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Free market isn't and never will be perfect, but it is what suits my point of view about this life better.
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Cytopathology lova'
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( boy4boy15 )
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from handsfree at 2:21 am on Oct. 11, 2008
 Free market isn't and never will be perfect, but it is what suits my point of view about this life better. 
Even though failure is a part of the 'free market' system?
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GeneCosta
Dairy Product Addict
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Capitalism will never fail because Socialism will always bail it out. - Ralph Nader What many (not all) conservatives, pseudo(right)-libertarians, and even centralists/ liberals mean by 'free market' is something Bertrand Russel described as the rich maxim: "The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate." The first step to improving our condition is to reject the corporate model of business. It is a tragedy that keeps billions of people in poverty. Europeans and Americans look south at the continents of Africa and South America, wondering why they remain poor. It isn't a matter of race. Corporations and governments so aligned with them are constantly raping these continents for profits. For every dollar made in Africa, eight leave the continent. How are they to lift themselves up "by their bootstraps" when it's both anatomically impossible and an instructional catastrophe? http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/28/two_myths_that_keep_the_world_poor/ Unfortunately, pro-capitalist think tanks like the Cato Institution have only sidestepped the solutions in favor of their market god. To reject the corporate model, we need to get rid of all intervention that is not done in defense of labor (which Lincoln called greater than capital - books don't mention that often): no limited liability (buy insurance if you can), no corporate personhood, no patents, no market barriers to mutual banks, no lousy restrictions on credit unions, no tax advantages to capital. From there we can have a global discussion over the role of property. Should we compete over it, or work together and improve our lot? Why can people own land for 30 years without using it? We need to start small and build up a new system that will not have a segment of the population excrete on the rest of us. Capitalism is not the best our species can do. I leave you with a quote that is more relevant to the current economic crises in capital. The rich will do anything for the poor but get off their backs. - Karl Marx Post edited at 5:47 am on Oct. 11, 2008 by GeneCosta
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Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man
how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity. - Karl Marx
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GeneCosta
Dairy Product Addict
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Even in a laissez faire non-capitalist market you have disadvantages which incur from the simplest mode of production and transportation: - Want is not being calculated; demand is. The two are separable terms, mostly by the access of wealth and income probabilities. - Certain forms of labor in any market system will be wasted for jobs that are otherwise unnecessary in an economy based around wants. Marketing and advertising are two popular forms. All jobs related to speculation, buying investments, appraisal, banking, forecast, and business lawyers. - Landlords and speculators <- admittedly, not possible in a free market socialist economy as envisioned by Proudhon and Tucker. - All effort done to maintain secrecy about product production. - The limitation of agriculture production versus cost of transportation. Von Mises will, of course, even in his grave make the convenient argument that "libertarian socialism would work - it's just evil."
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Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man
how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity. - Karl Marx
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Elm
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from GeneCosta at 3:01 pm on Oct. 11, 2008
There are also about a dozen Ayn Rand quotes I could toss in.
I like the ones where she derides homosexuals. It exposes her filth for everyone to see. It also pinpoints her juvenile cult philosophy. If I remember correctly, you don't identify as an anarchist. That's not surprising, of course. Even fanatics for Rothbard are coming to realize that the "natural rights" theory of property would be not a regular occurrence without a state. The expenses incurred from us individualist and social anarchists destroying property we disagreed with would be catastrophic. In other words, the true adherents to Benjamin Tucker and Adam Smith are not your friend. "Freedom when convenient" is the hallmark of capitalism. The truest form of freedom is socialism. Another quote bomb! From the "godfather" of anarchism (no, not Proudhon - although he's relevant too): Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality. - Bakunin
There isn't a person on the planet that doesn't have a negative characteristic you know. Rand was absolutely right about a lot of things. I'm no Randroid but I appreciate her vigor in defending a few of the things she was spot on. Freedom without Socialism is freedom. Socialism takes the mandate that a class of supposed betters knows better how to live your life than you do therefore they should control it. You do know that Socialism has its roots in classic conservatism as a way to preserve the aristocracy against the classical liberal (modern American conservative) ideal of liberty?
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3:50 pm on Oct. 11, 2008 | Joined Dec. 2006 | 205 Days Active
Join to learn more about Elm Pennsylvania, United States | 3444 Posts | 5599 Points
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Elm
Dairy Product Addict
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Quote: from GeneCosta at 3:15 pm on Oct. 11, 2008
Even in a laissez faire non-capitalist market you have disadvantages which incur from the simplest mode of production and transportation: - Want is not being calculated; demand is. The two are separable terms, mostly by the access of wealth and income probabilities. - Certain forms of labor in any market system will be wasted for jobs that are otherwise unnecessary in an economy based around wants. Marketing and advertising are two popular forms. All jobs related to speculation, buying investments, appraisal, banking, forecast, and business lawyers. - Landlords and speculators <- admittedly, not possible in a free market socialist economy as envisioned by Proudhon and Tucker. - All effort done to maintain secrecy about product production. - The limitation of agriculture production versus cost of transportation. Von Mises will, of course, even in his grave make the convenient argument that "libertarian socialism would work - it's just evil."
Oh come on how many times has that mantra been debunked? Fraud is a rights violation since contracts require informed consent - without disclosing information about products fraud occurs. Jeez do we have to go back to arguments from the 30's?
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3:51 pm on Oct. 11, 2008 | Joined Dec. 2006 | 205 Days Active
Join to learn more about Elm Pennsylvania, United States | 3444 Posts | 5599 Points
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