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and by that, I mean only physical

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Why is that?

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Obviously there are physical differences between races. This has been noted since the beginning of time. A black person in ancient Greece would be a man from Abyssinia, hence the very basic concept of race was with them and it's not totally arbitrary until we start defining the exact borderlines of each race (seeing how intermixing has usually occurred rather frequently where different races meet, in both space and time [after all, what happened to the non-Indo European speaking Neolithic Europeans?  Did they intermix with the Indo-European speaking peoples, thus making the race of Europeans a mix, or were they totally wiped out?], it's far more blurry than you'd like to think).

However, what they didn't have was the idea that race could be associated with other traits. What's socially constructed is the idea that a man that is from Russia is not just that, but also "Russian." With that label comes a multitude of ideas about non-physical traits which we have associated with the label. That is what is socially constructed, unless you can establish that individuals of a race almost always act in a certain way because they're of that race, which takes far more than simple association when many other factors could account for the whole thing.

Post edited at 9:58 pm on Oct. 8, 2008 by Bud2400

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Quote: from
However, what they didn't have was the idea that race could be associated with other traits.  What's socially constructed is the idea that a man that is from Russia is not just that, but also "Russian."  With that label comes a multitude of ideas about non-physical traits which we have associated with the label.  That is what is socially constructed, unless you can establish that  individuals of a race almost always act in a certain way because they're of that race, which takes far more than simple association when many other factors could account for the whole thing.

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However, what they didn't have was the idea that race could be associated with other traits. What's socially constructed is the idea that a man that is from Russia is not just that, but also "Russian."

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With that label comes a multitude of ideas about non-physical traits which we have associated with the label.

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hat is what is socially constructed, unless you can establish that individuals of a race almost always act in a certain way because they're of that race, which takes far more than simple association when many other factors could account for the whole thing.

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Is intelligence a physical trait to you? Do you think genetics plays no role in intelligence?

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"If you worship your enemy, you are defeated.
If you adopt your enemy's religion you are enslaved.
If you breed with your enemy you are destroyed."
-Polydoros

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That is what is socially constructed unless you can establish that individuals of a race almost always act in a certain way because they're of that race, which takes far more than simple association when many other factors could account for the whole thing.

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Physical does not just mean the body. It can mean the brain too. A lot of what affects the brain isn't just genetics. Social constructs and social expectations and convention also affect the way ppl think.

So for example if you live around a bunch of dicks your whole life, some of your way of thinking can be affected by the dicks around you UNLESS you make an EFFORT not to be like them. That's what is social.  

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

There are no such things as separate races. There is only one race, and that is the human race. A man from the middle east is perfectly capable of producing fertile offspring with a woman from Europe. Our DNA is 99% similar. Only 1% sets us apart. That is not nearly enough to consider ourselves separate species or races.

The concept of different races has risen primarily for furthering the agendas of ethnic classification and discrimination/stereotype. For instance, 200 yrs ago there was only three "races". White, black, and yellow. Today there are many "races." The truth is, one never knows when to draw the line in physical features including skin color.

Intelligence and IQ does not vary from "races" either. IQ test in the US are impartial and designed to make the scores of westerners higher than those of Asians and other minorities. Furthermore, there are different type of 'intelligence', if you will. While the members of one culture may be intelligent in manual labor, growing crops, or being excelled survival men by using their clairvoyance to survive, other cultures are intelligent in mathematics or astronomy. Take the Mayans and Aztecs for instance. American IQ tests would rate them as idiots, yet we know they had excellent calendars and engineers.

So, yes, "race" is a social construct. There is only one human species.

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People ask you for criticism, but they only want praise.

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The truth is, one never knows when to draw the line in physical features including skin color.

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it's a cultural quality. Russia itself is home to Whites, nonWhite Caucasoids, and Mongoloids - due to its size.

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Though you do get the point.  Instead of being of English, Welsh, and Swedish descent, I am "white."  Pretty much the same thing.

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Russian isn't a race, is it?

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It's a nationality, and the way I'm using the example could be used in the exact same way for races.  Don't miss the point by getting stuck on a technicality.  The way we see race is almost identical to the way we see nationality, and with that in mind, it should be no surprise that as nationality became a popular concept in the 19th century that race did as well.

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What do you see as physical traits and non-physical traits?

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Skin color, height, bone structure, facial features, etc. all count as physical differences.

Greater resistance to certain diseases would also be another physical, or biological, trait.  Same with certain mutations (such as the one predominant among Europeans that allows them to digest lactose [milk] into adulthood, which isn't so among other races around the world, hence why lactose intolerance is considered an abnormality in predominantly European countries but not in non-European countries).

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Is intelligence a physical trait to you? Do you think genetics plays no role in intelligence?

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Intelligence isn't physical.  From what I can see, while intelligence tends to be correlated with whites and Asians, those races also tend to be correlated with the level of integration into our society, better general socioeconomic levels, etc.  It also seems to be heavily influenced by culture.

You can point to things like brain sizes and IQs in different races, but I'd say it's unproven as correlation =/= causation.  If such were to be true, you'd have to find a direct cause for this (as we have for something like how blacks tend to be more resistant against malaria than whites, yet more susceptible to sickle cell disease than whites are) as there are many other correlations that could be made to counter the one you propose.  You have to convince us why yours is right, not just that there's a tendency.

Post edited at 11:10 pm on Oct. 9, 2008 by Bud2400

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Physical does not just mean the body. It can mean the brain too. A lot of what affects the brain isn't just genetics. Social constructs and social expectations and convention also affect the way ppl think.

So for example if you live around a bunch of dicks your whole life, some of your way of thinking can be affected by the dicks around you UNLESS you make an EFFORT not to be like them. That's what is social.  

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Race is a social construct.

There are no such things as separate races. There is only one race, and that is the human race. A man from the middle east is perfectly capable of producing fertile offspring with a woman from Europe. Our DNA is 99% similar. Only 1% sets us apart. That is not nearly enough to consider ourselves separate species or races.

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So we're Chimps and Neanderthals too!

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The concept of different races has risen primarily for furthering the agendas of ethnic classification and discrimination/stereotype. For instance, 200 yrs ago there was only three "races". White, black, and yellow. Today there are many "races." The truth is, one never knows when to draw the line in physical features including skin color.

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Now there is 5 - Caucasians, Negroes, Mongols (Asians and Amerinds were grouped together due to genetic and historical evidence), Capoids and Australoids.

Nowadays, Capoids and Australoids don't really get much attention anyway.

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Intelligence and IQ does not vary from "races" either. IQ test in the US are impartial and designed to make the scores of westerners higher than those of Asians and other minorities. Furthermore, there are different type of 'intelligence', if you will. While the members of one culture may be intelligent in manual labor, growing crops, or being excelled survival men by using their clairvoyance to survive, other cultures are intelligent in mathematics or astronomy. Take the Mayans and Aztecs for instance. American IQ tests would rate them as idiots, yet we know they had excellent calendars and engineers.

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The Amerinds, the closest relatives to Aztecs/Mayans score an average of 90 on IQ tests.

Regardless of how great their math was, they, naturally, aren't as good at it as the Eurasians in tests.

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So, yes, "race" is a social construct. There is only one human species.

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Though you do get the point.  Instead of being of English, Welsh, and Swedish descent, I am "white."  Pretty much the same thing.

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It's a nationality, and the way I'm using the example could be used in the exact same way for races.  Don't miss the point by getting stuck on a technicality.  The way we see race is almost identical to the way we see nationality, and with that in mind, it should be no surprise that as nationality became a popular concept in the 19th century that race did as well.

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Intelligence isn't physical.  From what I can see, while intelligence tends to be correlated with whites and Asians, those races also tend to be correlated with the level of integration into our society, better general socioeconomic levels, etc.  It also seems to be heavily influenced by culture.

You can point to things like brain sizes and IQs in different races, but I'd say it's unproven as correlation =/= causation.  If such were to be true, you'd have to find a direct cause for this (as we have for something like how blacks tend to be more resistant against malaria than whites, yet more susceptible to sickle cell disease than whites are) as there are many other correlations that could be made to counter the one you propose.  You have to convince us why yours is right, not just that there's a tendency.

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I never said there is no social influence on race,

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Race is, in NO WAY, a social construct.

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But 1.23% can separate into a different genus and .3% can separate into a different species (Neanderthals).

So we're Chimps and Neanderthals too!

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There were 4 - Whites, Blacks, Asians, and Amerinds.

Now there is 5 - Caucasians, Negroes, Mongols (Asians and Amerinds were grouped together due to genetic and historical evidence), Capoids and Australoids.

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Aztecs and Mayans never took an IQ test.

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The Amerinds, the closest relatives to Aztecs/Mayans score an average of 90 on IQ tests.

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they, naturally, aren't as good at it as the Eurasians in tests.

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That's no proof at all. I've seen these arguments, and 10x better arguments many times before.

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Because the inhabitants of those lands are White - you genetically inherit your race - your culture is a different story.

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I don't see race as nationality, so I really can't relate.

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Check my Eurasian intelligence thread. I explained my theory on WHY it's so, and I posted a lot more.

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You can point to things like brain sizes and IQs in different races, but I'd say it's unproven as correlation =/= causation.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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Yes you DID!

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YOUR words with the allcaps included.

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humans and chimps are 96% the same. Thats a 4% difference. Learned math lately?

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Shows that the info changes all the time.

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I doubt the classifications will change at all, really.

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You didn't get his point did you? He said that ALTHOUGH they never did they still were great mathematicians and engineers.

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you don't account for decline in civilization and the fact that IQ depends on culture? I bet the Viking scored a 75 IQ but the descendants can measure highe. Asians scored way abode most whites and make upa good % of  engineer and scientists in the US and even Europe compared to their numbers.

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its funny how you always come up with total subjective BS from your ass.

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You reject any proof ppl give you and only accept your own data so thats easy.

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so you admit that race is not always connected to culture.

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you really make a special effort to be stupid or misunderstand what Bud is asking you?

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The thing people are saying is this:
There isn't enough genetic variation among races to have an effect on the brain
OR
The genetic variation among races doesn't include the brain.

That 3-scale difference tends to ALWAYS hold true, no matter how the environment changes.

The Negroes are on one side of the scale, the Orientals on the other, the Whites in the middle, usually closer to the Orientals.

Some more excerpts from the book, the whole 4th chapter (intelligence and brain size):







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"If you worship your enemy, you are defeated.
If you adopt your enemy's religion you are enslaved.
If you breed with your enemy you are destroyed."
-Polydoros

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i was created by others it was created by the color of our skin but then it was turned into the background of language

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The "Hispanic" part has nothing to do with race.

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"If you worship your enemy, you are defeated.
If you adopt your enemy's religion you are enslaved.
If you breed with your enemy you are destroyed."
-Polydoros